Posted by rb12024 on 9/25/08 17:41
scoring during play
a scorekeeper asks each player for their score, the scorekeeper repeats the score the player told him and writes it down.
if you don't beleive the player had that particular score on the hole it is your right and your duty to question him about that score.
not only keep track of your score on the hole, pay attention to the other players in the group
help them with their math when the holes over by saying are you sure that was your score and go shot by shot.
hopefully there math will improve as the round goes on
this happens more often than you may think, even in the pro divisions
a player is not cheating simply because they say the wrong score.
this is why the scores shall be called out aloud for everyone to here, so in case there is an error, it can be corrected
anytime there is a problem let your tournament director know and let them take care of it. (thats why there getting paid the big bucks)
Posted by Rman on 9/26/08 9:34
This is why it is good to wait til you get to the next T-pad to do the scoring, everyone is in a group and all can hear. I have been with people that start asking at the basket they just finished on and ask each person on the way to the next hole. Not only does this tie up the previous hole, not all in the group hear everyones score.
Posted by TheLung on 9/26/08 9:54
From the PDGA Rule Book: (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php)
B. After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each players name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group. If there is any disagreement about the score a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the players score, they shall consult 803.01 D.
Posted by rb12024 on 9/26/08 11:51
then why is a player labeled a cheater simply because he calls out a score someone in the group does beleive is accurate,but goes unquestioned
Posted by BrianGunkel on 9/26/08 12:20
according to 3 different sources this player whom you may or may not be referring to did this on quite a few holes in the rec division at fools in the creek. the problem is that most players in the rec division dont know the rules but i cant see someone screwing up simple math over and over on the same day. When you get a 10 and you say you got a 7 or you get a 5 and say a 4 or get a 4 and say 3 clearly you are trying to get an edge over the competition. Now clearly i was not there so all i can do is go by what 3 others that were there said what was happening. I can understand how no rec players that saw this said anything at the time because when i talk to them about stuff like this they dont know the rules and how to go about clarifying the matter. It's just one of those things that happens everytime. There is alot more cheating going on than 1 would think as i have witnessed a bunch over the years as i discussed on that bearclaws thread you might be referring to. As a spotter for pro worlds in 2005 i witnessed blatant cheating in the pro masters division where someone threw out of bounds in the weeds and then looked around and waited for the other 3 guys to go past him , then pick up his disc and toss it in bounds and then throw without penalty from that spot. That golfer whom most of us would know by name never saw me standing there in the bushes watching.
Posted by rb12024 on 9/26/08 16:28
the reference to the pro master at worlds has no relevance to this matter but since you brought it up,
as a spotter, would you not be visible to the group and assist them in locating their discs AND pointing out to the group whether they were in or out of bounds.
I also find it hard to believe the group would walk past an away player to start with, and not check to see his disc was inbounds or help him locate it
the point is all players in the group are responsible for the correct score being recorded for each player on the hole.
if you feel a player says the wrong score try to straighten the matter out
this is not only the rule, but common sense
obviously if nothing is said and a player is untruthful they'll probably try it again
you'll be surprised how quickly a players math will improve if the other players in the group are keeping track of his shots
again, if there are any problems during play, talk to the tournament director
Posted by BrianGunkel on 9/26/08 16:59
it was hole 6 at the parkway ( over the creek ) . I was on the other side of the creek and the group had assumed that all tee shots were safe over the o.b. field. The 1 guys disc that was not ( about 2 feet or less short ) waited until the others in the group turned away and then picked his disc up and plopped it in the fair side of the out of bounds tape or rope. Since those other guys thought he was safe since it was close did not question it and no one saw me standing there until they all came around to the other side of the creek. I did not say anything because i was not expecting for something like that to happen and it caught me off guard. Plus this guy has been on videos and that is another reason i said nothing. I guess the reason i brought it up is because i am ranting about cheating and that was one of the worst i ever saw.
Posted by Fornia on 9/26/08 18:24
Although I really try to keep the games seperate as I am learning and enjoying the great game of disc golf, I am often forced to reflect on 'ball' golf as I have a decent background and am well versed in tournament operations and the Rules of Golf.
I will admit that my point DOES NOTHING to change the fact that a person may try to proclaim a score lower than the score they actually made.
From my first disc golf tournament (I've only played a handful) I found it odd that although each player fills out a card, only one card is used during the round for official scoring. Whereas in 'ball' golf, each player is given their own scorecard and is required on the first tee to exchange their own card with that of another player in that group. Ultimately, making that other person the scorer for your round. While recording your score it is advised that the player also keep his/her own score somewhere on the card for personal refernce, and as a reference point for any discrepencies. Each player is keeping another person's score in that group during the round.
Upon the completion of a round, the two players verify and attest the scores on the cards. I'd typically say, "Joe, I had you for a 75". Players are responsible for their 'hole-by-hole' scores but you'd typically total the front/back nines and total. If there is a difference in 9-hole or 18-hole scores, they can go back on each other's scoring on a 'hole-by-hole' basis to figure out the reason for the mixup. Once everything is agreed by the players they would both sign that individual card and hand it into the scoring folks. In the end the player is responsible for handing in their own card, as well as, the scores and signatures on that card.
If you are bored, I found some good verbage from the Virginia State Golf Association on the points I've mentioned below...This is the same way you'd score if you played at Saucon Valley, Shepherd Hills or any individual tournament at any golf course near you. Scrambles...are totally different and if you've played in a few, you know that sometimes there can be rumors of teams cheating in scrambles. Scrambles do not apply to what I am saying.
My issues with the way disc golf compares closer to Miniature Golf than 'Ball Golf' in its scoring practices...not a good thing. :)
1. The subject of this thread...a person saying a different (most likely lower) score than they actually made.
2. When 1 person holds and records scores on 1 card...what is stopping a cheater from actually announcing a correct score of 5, only to mark down a 4 on the card? Even if you hand off the card during the round, would most people actually catch it...a few holes later? THIS ONE...really bothers me. Just for the fact that it could happen.
The reference to 'ball' golf's way of scoring does not eliminate the issues I've noted above. However I do feel that knowing the fact that your playing competitor is keeping your score while you are scoring for that player (or another player in a group of 3 or 4) gives a more responsible impression to each competitor. I think its often forgotten that as a player, it is your responsibility to protect the integrity of the other players in the field.
The unfortunate part of this way of scoring is it would require a bit more work for a TD. I've played 2 AMMOS and I applaud Robin for the work he puts into the workdays, directing, and scoring of the tournaments. Thus, I am in no way questioning what I've witnessed locally in our tournaments. We're lucky to have someone that steps up to do this.....Dont get that twisted.
I am commenting on what I understand to be the general scoring practices for the game of disc golf in general. SO basically, this is just an observation and point of view.
The competitors responsibilities:
· Each player will have an Official Scorecard provided to them. Players will exchange scorecards on the first tee.
· USGA (United States Golf Association) Rule 6-6a: After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker shall sign the card and hand it to the competitor.
· USGA Rule 6-6b: After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the committee. He shall ensure that the marker has signed the card, countersign the card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible. Penalty for breach of Rule 6-6b: Disqualification.
· USGA Rule 6-6c: No alteration may be made on a card after the competitor has returned it to the committee.
· USGA Rule 6-6d: The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he shall be disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned shall stand.
· Players should go directly to the scoring table after your 18th hole has been completed. Scorecards should be signed immediately upon completion of play, no communication with parents, family or friends until the scorecard is signed.
· All scoring rulings or rule information must be requested of the tournament official(s) before the scorecard is attested.
· Each player must perform his responsibility to protect the field by reporting any rule infraction. Players are reminded that under USGA Rule No. 1-3, no player may exclude the operation of a rule or waive any penalty incurred.
USGA Rules will govern all play. CHEATING WILL NOT BE TOLERATED! Any knowledge of cheating should be reported to the Tournament Director as soon as possible.
It is the explicit duty of each competitor to protect the field.
Posted by BrianGunkel on 9/26/08 20:41
I smell bacon.
Posted by rb12024 on 9/27/08 14:26
from what I have read the player, who may or may not have taken 10 strokes to complete the hole, replied 7 seven when asked what his score was. the scorekeeper then wrote down 7.
i don't believe the player in question was keeping score as jason is alluding to.
the problem was the group did not question the validity of the players score, even though it seemed they did not believe it, and the player received a 7 on the hole.
its the groups responsibility to verify the players score, i.e.
help them with their selective memory and go over the hole shot by shot.
this apparently happened more than once, SO, if the player was questioned in the first instance the problem would have probably ended right there
players are often questioned about their scores not only in a sanctioned event, but tag rounds and the $5 side bet casual rounds as well.
This Post was from: https://lvdiscgolf.org/main/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=2&topic_id=564